Book Discussion ? (28)

1 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-15 22:36 [Del]

So I finally finished reading Ted's Technological Society and its Future. Well, I must say that it was very thought provoking. I had never cared much about the use of Technology and its impact on practically everything.

His proposed revolution pretty much writes me off. I'm a lazy, incompetent loser who's so heavily dependent on the system that I won't make it should it be taken down. Oh well, I wouldn't mind it one bit.

Do any wizards here actually believe that such a revolution can happen?
I personally don't think so.

Do you like the idea of returning to a more primitive society free of the incredibly complex technologies we currently use?

2 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-15 23:57 [Del]

It's good that you have read it in full. I only read part of it before getting distracted by something else and forgetting about it. What I did read opened my eyes to the truly devastating effects of the industrial revolution. Previously, I wasn't fully aware of what it has done to the world. I'm more aware of how computers/internet have ruined us. But I see it now. Humans have destroyed so much in their demand for "progress."

I do pine for a return to primitive society. All of this destruction has only made our lives unnecessarily complex and stressful. I don't think it was worth the price at all. However, I don't think a revolution to set ourselves on this path to the past will ever happen. We are too far gone. Despite realizing where technology has brought us, I still cling to my comforts. The rest of the people are blissfully unaware of it or actively ignore it. The way I see it, the only way to fix it is to end humankind or possibly destroy the planet. With the way people breed, extinction will likely never happen. But the destruction of the planet at the hands of humans could very well become a reality. But we probably won't live to see it.

3 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-16 06:58 [Del]

Currently reading Anatomy of Melancholy. It's really enjoyable, specially the parts where he talks about supernatural forces causing melancholic feelings. It's a collection of happenings and sayings hoarded by a solitary man over the course of decades.

4 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-16 11:21 [Del]

>>2
Good post.

In the case that Humans do manage to return back to a more primitive society I feel that we will again gradually go back towards a technological society. Humans aren't going to accept a life of hunting and gathering. They will go back to agriculture and that will eventually put them on the path towards a technological society.

I guess it's inevitable.

>>3
I'll check it out, sounds interesting.

5 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-17 16:00 [Del]

>>4
I'd recommend to read Technological Slavery: Collected Writings of Ted Kaczynski, as it contain additional stuff that develop more of what he write in his manifesto, and other stuff that isn't in it.

A revolution is highly unlikely to succeed if it did happened, not that I think that it's possible given our current attachment to technology, but who knows?

Why it is unlikely to succeed is that a crushingly unanimous, international and coherent revolution never happened, and that can't be realized, since there is a lot of humans, and they have all conflicting interest individually and as group. Small groups of people managed their revolution in the past, but there were political revolutions, generally a result of a long societal transformation. With a luddite revolution, we are talking about a deep technological, economical, and cultural transformation, completely opposite to our current civilization, and this sort of thing only can happened if it is perceived as the superior way of doing thing, just like the industrialization. What is seen as superior generally speaking is something that contribute to more food, more wealth, more shiny goods, more people, bigger city, more centralized power, more stable society, what can be used to be stronger than your neighbors, and eventually subjugate or assimilate them, etc... That's why farming is "superior" to hunting, steel "superior" to stone axe, gunpowder "superior" to bow, factory "superior" to workshop, radio "superior" horses, etc... What will happen in case of a successful luddite revolution, is that other technologically superior countries will see this as an opportunity to extend their borders, or some poor and desperate peoples that need an "humanitarian" intervention to protect them, and exploit their resources and labor, and if those technologically superior countries are nice enough to leave the luddites alone, what will probably happen in the span of a few generations is that peoples will adopt technology again to have a nicer lifestyle since primitivism isn't all flower and fresh water (unless living in a technological society has become so horrible, that it become unthinkable, like a giant grim gulag, but I doubt that, we are probably looking towards a world full of dull entertainment, and generally speaking kids living in the country dream to go the city).

For a revolution to succeed it need to destroy all (all as in the entire world) the physical and digital textbooks including historical (you don't want future generation to be able to learn how technology was great) and cultural (you don't want them to be able to read those textbook at all), destroy all the infrastructure so that it can't be used for an other industrial revolution, and kill off all the people who hold any sort of knowledge of science and tech, they will probably die of frostbite or starvation, but you never know. An other problem is that luddites will be inevitably facing people who don't want a luddite revolution, and they will use force without a shadow of a doubt, and to be able to face them, luddites will need equal power, and so they will need industry to manufacture weapons, advanced communication system, food, medication, etc... for war effort, and it might be tempting to keep technology as it is for yourself, as it is a great source of power.

The only thing that can bring down technology is for it to collapse by itself, or from natural disaster. Until then welcome to the Cyberpunk nightmare, hope you're comfortable with it.

6 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-17 16:29 [Del]

>>4
Continue previous post.

On a more optimistic view.

>They will go back to agriculture and that will eventually put them on the path towards a technological society.

That what people who speak about progress want you to believe. And what we can see in society, the most of the time. Additionally Ted K. don't believe that all technology is bad. We are naked monkey and without tools we are pretty hopeless. And tools are technology, making a stone axe, a spear, a bow, farming, herding, domesticating, are all technology. I believe that Ted makes a distinction between two types of technology. One that can be decide, and realized by a small group of people out of their own will, that can satisfy their power process, and independence as group and individual.

A simple watermill, which all need is a bit of ingeniousness and knowledge, local resources, and respond to a need of the community. Something like a nuclear powerplant, on an other hand, cannot be decide by a single community, it need a centralized decision that may not give a concern of what think the local population, need huge amount of resources that have to be brought from advanced factory and mining facility far away, and specialized workers, who often are non local, all of this to produce absurdly vast amount of electricity that the surrounding people don't really need. After the construction his electricity need powerful transformer to be usable, power-line over long distance, which all need to be built, and maintain, etc... In short, it isn't decided by the community, it doesn't involve the community, and don't respond to the need of the community, and the individual can't satisfy his need of power process since it is stripped for the need of an higher organization.

On the subject of the inevitable advance of the technology. It isn't always the case. But I don't feel like writing about it right now.

7 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-18 19:00 [Del]

That was a good read. If I can concentrate my brain again then I will check out that edition.

8 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-19 03:03 [Del]

>>3
This sounds interesting, I'll be looking into it.

I'm not currently reading anything too intellectual or philosophical. I'm about halfway through Half A War by Joe Abercrombie.

The pacing of this one feels very rushed, like much had to be packed into a small place. I also must say that while an enjoyable enough fantasy story, his books taking place in the world of The First Law are much better. Intended for a wider audience The Shattered Sea trilogy is a much "cleaner", but I don't feel like this is an improvement on anything or moving in a different direction; rather it feels like Joe is merely restraining himself. After reading his earlier work, these books come off as him biting his tongue. They are allegedly more "technically proficient" but as for my own tastes (however unqualified they may be judged) are inferior.

I haven't read Sharp Ends yet but I have it on hold from the library once an available copy gets returned. I'm looking forward to it, I think it will be a bit refreshing after going through the Shattered Sea.

9 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-21 05:20 [Del]

It is tangentially related to going back to a previous way; but I recently read 'The Classical Liberal Constitution: The Uncertain Quest for Limited Government' by Richard A. Epstein.

It is about going back to the roots of the US Constitution and interpreting them in a way that he believes the authours intended it to be interpreted and tries to look at it without the influence of the modern 'living constitution' idea. While I disagree with a few of his points; particularly on the matter of firearms where he is a bit more restrictive than I, his underlying premise that for an ideal liberal (as in free) society to bloom in the US, society needs to take a step back from modern interpretation of the role of government as elected rulers of the state and instead look at government as a necessary evil which the Constitution was supposed to restrain from getting to the point that it has gotten to where it holds authority over the people instead of serving them. To me this is the ideal; that the government is as minimal to nonexistant as possible and society is founded on the belief that all men contain a free spirit that must be respected. In the real world I am more of a Social Liberal who understands the need for some government oversight, so it was nice to read something that shows a plausible route to a free people should humans ever be capable of sustaining such a thing.

I found it a really interesting book but if you aren't at least open minded about classical liberalism then it mightn't be your thing. I would think that wizchan would have people with a mind to thinking about that sort of thing though. Lord knows we have enough people who think heavily about the merits of Nazism, so why not other forms of governance?

10 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-25 22:55 [Del]

I don't think ted truly understood what hard work agriculture was before the invention of the combine harvester and related industrial revolution devices and chemical fertilisers.

11 Name: Anonymage : 2016-07-26 02:43 [Del]

>>10
I'm certain he knew it. He had a small subsistence plot behind his lodge for potatoes and various vegetables. And he strongly criticized anarcho-primitivist for having deluded idea of lifestyle of our ancestors prior the industrialization.

See The Truth About Primitive Life: A Critique of Anarcho-Primitivism, by Ted K. (found in Technological Slavery).

>In a part of his essay that many anarcho-primitivists have found convenient to overlook, Bob Black acknowledges the 40-hour workweek and explains the foregoing contradiction: Sahlins followed early work of Lee that considered only time spent in hunting and foraging. When all necessary work was considered, the workweek was more than doubled.
>The work omitted from consideration by Sahlins and the anarcho-primitivists was probably the most disagreeable part of the Bushmen’s workweek, too, since it consisted largely of food-preparation and firewood collection. I speak from extensive personal experience with wild foods: Preparing such foods for use is very often a pain in the neck. It is far more pleasant to gather nuts, dig roots, or hunt game than it is to crack nuts, clean roots, or skin and butcher game—or to collect firewood and cook over an open fire.
>Gontran de Poncins stated that the Eskimos with whom he lived about 1939-1940 had “no significant degree of leisure,” and that they “toiled and moiled fifteen hours a day merely in order to get food and stay alive.”
>Usually, gathering edible roots in the wilderness is not like pulling carrots out of the soft, cultivated soil of a garden. More typically the ground is hard, or covered with tough sod that you have to hack through in order to get at the roots.
>etc...

He criticized them again in his private correspondence.

The idea of Ted K. isn't to make our life more comfortable, but to liberate humans.

12 Name: Anonymage : 2016-08-01 17:49 [Del]

I've been reading the Dao De Jing and I am digging it so far. I think Ted would like this book. I am terrible at summarizing so I will leave a link here for those who might be interested in reading it. Also don't associate the Philosophical Daosim with the Religious Daoism, the former came before the latter. The Religious Daosim is a mixture of folk religion and daoism, I am sure the author, Lao Tzu, would be completely against it.

http://ctext.org/dao-de-jing

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14 Name: Anonymage : 2016-10-30 17:43 [Del]

Uncle Ted wrote a new book.

Review and purchase link here: http://wildism.org/hg/article/review-anti-tech-revolution-why-and-how-by-ted-kaczynski/

I have not found an electronic copy yet, but I have also not looked hard enough.

15 Name: Anonymage : 2016-10-31 21:57 [Del]

>>14
Thanks for this, friend.

16 Name: Anonymage : 2016-11-02 11:50 [Del]

I really like the Dresden Files series, they're Urban Fantasy and pretty fun.

17 Name: Anonymage : 2016-12-21 16:00 [Del]

>>14
I've decided to buy it since I couldn't find a digital version on anywhere.

I hope it's good.

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25 Name: Anonymage : 2017-02-14 10:34 [Del]

>>14
Here it is, wiz. I haven't finished it. I think Elder Wizard Ted is probably correct about pretty much everything. But my existentialist and antinatalist views prevent me from getting too worked up about it anymore. (Not ashamed to say that when I read his first book I had nightmares! And felt overwhelmed for maybe a month.)
https://archive.org/details/KaczynskiAntiTechRevolutionWhyAndHow

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27 Name: Anonymage : 2019-11-10 06:27 [Del]

No, and no, but because technologists enslave us without consent they are rotten fuckers who deserve to have to fight for every inch they take.

28 Name: Anonymage : 2019-11-18 13:56 [Del]

Hong Kong and France have no guns, but are protesting tyranny.

The US has guns, but does nothing about tyranny.

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